Confused about email subscription options

[Lizzie]

I have just set up a private forum on Nabble: http://ukes4fun-private-forum.1075308.n5.nabble.com/

Only "members" can view content.

I have set the main application as "Category".

One of the sub-categories is a "Mailing List Archive" for a Google Group that I run (registration is proving a problem for many new members, so I want to move this off Google Groups).  The other sub-categories are varied but none of them are "Mixed" apps.

I am trying to create some "Instruction Sheets" to help members register and understand how the new forum on Nabble works. In doing this, I realise that I am confused about how "mailing list subscription works".

In order to take a screen-shot of what happens when you select "Options" on the mail page, in order to then select "Subscribe", I selected "Edit".   This was with the intention of turning off my subscription so that I could then go back and take a screen-shot of the drop-down menu.

However, I then saw a "warning" message that I do not understand:



Text of Warning Message:
"This subscription is independent of the real mailing list subscription.  Basically, you will subscribe to the forum archive, not to the mailing list itself. The archive subscription won't guarantee that your messages will be accepted by the mailing list".

Q1. What is the "real mailing list subscription" and how is that activated, if not by selecting the Options button on the main page?

Q2. If I select the "Unsubscribe" option as shown in the screen-shot above, what would I then have to do - if anything - if I wanted to subscribe to all new posts and replies across the whole forum?  Or am I still subscribed anyway?

Q3. If a new member wants to subscribe only to particular Categories, eg. "Notice Board" (Newsletter app), or "Announcements" (Forum app), do they have to "turn off" a main mailing list subscription somewhere and then activate an email subscription for each of these categories?

Q5. I need to try and ensure that all members receive email updates whenever there are new topics or replies in the "Announcements" category, even if they do not want to receive any other info by email.  Which apps and settings would most easily achieve this?

Q6. Is there a way for me to generate an initial "activation" email for members that gives the following options:

a) subscribe to all email updates for all new topics and replies across the whole forum

b) as in a) above but now go to turn off subscriptions to any topics that do not interest you

c) subscribe only to important "Announcements". eg. change of venue or session cancelled

d) as in c) above but now go to turn on subscriptions to any other topics that do interest you

Q7. I am VERY confused about the difference between the Nabble apps "Start a Free Forum" and "Start a Free Mailing List".  Is the "back-end" essentially the same but just a different visual presentation? Or are there real functional differences and different options for administration and for users?  For example, does the Mailing List App include an option to moderate new messages before they are posted to the list?

Q8. It is confusing that anyone can Register as User of the Forum but they cannot actually access it until I make them a member.  I think now it would have been clearer if I had made it "by invitation only".  Is it possible for me to change this setting for the whole Forum?

I have had a very good search for the answers to the above.  My apologies if they are somewhere but I could not find them.

Best wishes,
Lizzie

[Lizzie]

Aha! - I have found the answer to one of my questions :-)

Q7. I am VERY confused about the difference between the Nabble apps "Start a Free Forum" and "Start a Free Mailing List".  Is the "back-end" essentially the same but just a different visual presentation? Or are there real functional differences and different options for administration and for users?  For example, does the Mailing List App include an option to moderate new messages before they are posted to the list?

Answer: The "Universal Back-end!": http://www.nabble.com/back-end.html

I only found that looking for the "Latest Features" page - which I thought linked from the "Home Page".

Maybe that could be made just a little bit easier to find? http://support.nabble.com/Nabble-Latest-Features-f1559156.html

Best wishes,
Lizzie

[GregChapman]

I'm confused by your confusion! The page:
 http://www.nabble.com/back-end.html
is linked directly from the home page at:
 http://www.nabble.com/
in answer to the question "How are these apps possible?"

Now to attempt to answer the rest of your questions...

[Lizzie]

Dear Greg,

Thank you so much!

Just to clarify - it is the "features page" that I thought and expected to find linked from the main page.

Best wishes,
Lizzie
ps.  These are the instructions that I have put on the Forum Main Page - and then realised that I might have misunderstood how email subscriptions work:

[GregChapman]

Text of Warning Message:
"This subscription is independent of the real mailing list subscription.  Basically, you will subscribe to the forum archive, not to the mailing list itself. The archive subscription won't guarantee that your messages will be accepted by the mailing list".

Q1. What is the "real mailing list subscription" and how is that activated, if not by selecting the Options button on the main page?

The "real mailing list" refers to your GoogleGroup.

When you subscribe to a Nabble archive of a mailing list hosted by someone else all you get is the mail received by the archive from that other provider. It works because Nabble will have subscribed to that mailing list.

While you will be able to reply to the mailing list via Nabble and Nabble will forward your post to the mailing list, the "real mailing list" will only accept the message if YOU are subscribed! It's an obvious security system for the mailing list. If that feature didn't exist the owners of the mailing list couldn't keep out those subscribers it didn't want to accept to its list.

In other words, if someone joins your forum and attempts to post to to your GoogleGroup via Nabble then the message will bounce UNLESS that someone is also subscribed to the GoogleGroup.

Q2. If I select the "Unsubscribe" option as shown in the screen-shot above, what would I then have to do - if anything - if I wanted to subscribe to all new posts and replies across the whole forum?  Or am I still subscribed anyway?

From your screen shot I cannot tell at what level in your forum you are subscribed. So I cannot answer your question - but these are the principles...

If you are subscribed at the top level then you will receive all posts made at that level and any sub-forum, regardless of application type and depth of level of sub-forum. If you are subscribed to a sub-forum then you will receive all posts made to that sub-forum and any further sub-forums of that particular forum. Again, this is regardless of the application type at any level.

NOTE: When you subscribe at any level, Nabble will NOT indicate that you are subscribed at any sub-level, though you will receive posts through your subscription at the higher level. Unsubscribe at the higher level, and you will stop receiving posts from that forum and all sub-forums.

Q3. If a new member wants to subscribe only to particular Categories, eg. "Notice Board" (Newsletter app), or "Announcements" (Forum app), do they have to "turn off" a main mailing list subscription somewhere and then activate an email subscription for each of these categories?

The answer above should answer this one!

Q5. I need to try and ensure that all members receive email updates whenever there are new topics or replies in the "Announcements" category, even if they do not want to receive any other info by email.  Which apps and settings would most easily achieve this?

Again, this should be clear from my first answer. The Announcements sub-forums must have no sub-forums and your members need to subscribe to the "Announcements" sub-forum.

Q6. Is there a way for me to generate an initial "activation" email for members that gives the following options:

Yes and no!

First you need to request Nabble to install the "Invite Subscribers" module into your forum. That will allow you to send an email to those you enter in the appropriate screen. That automated mail with a standard wording includes a link to the page where they make the decision on whether to subscribe to every message/new topics and whether to receive individual mails or a daily digest. (It is possible to alter the wording of the standard email, but that required editing the NAML code that generates the mail.)

However, as suggested above, it will require multiple invitations to distinguish between subscriptions to the whole forum or particular parts of it.

In my experience, too much hand-holding of mailing list, newsgroup and forum users only leads to continuing naivety and mistakes from users. I believe that the better approach is to attempt general education. I'd point your users to a FAQ posting, along the lines of the one I use on one of my forums at:
http://seahawk-forum.968426.n3.nabble.com/Subscribing-by-Email-tp1599197.html
(Actually, reading it today, I see I really ought to update it a little. Obviously, you'll need to create your own version.)

Q7. I am VERY confused about the difference between the Nabble apps "Start a Free Forum" and "Start a Free Mailing List".  Is the "back-end" essentially the same but just a different visual presentation? Or are there real functional differences and different options for administration and for users?  For example, does the Mailing List App include an option to moderate new messages before they are posted to the list?

You know the answer to most of this, so I'll restrict myself to the last sentence.

No! There is no moderation facility of the kind used by conventional mail list software. In spite of the references to mail list Nabble is essentially forum software and works on forum principles. There is NO mechanism for control individual posts. Instead, you have to learn to trust users, and award them increasing levels of access depending on experience. The default settings allow "Anyone" to view and post to a forum (and because of the default "inherit" facility, any sub-forums as well). Typically, a forum owner will over-ride these settings and remove posting rights from "Anyone" granting them only to "Registered" users (i.e. those who go through the automated process of providing an email address).

Above that are "Members". A forum user is placed in the "Anyone" group automatically. They can upgrade themselves to "Registered" simply by supplying an email address. You need to specifically add people to the "Members" group. Typically, "Members" will be given additional permissions so they can view additional sub-forums or post on sub-forums which registered users are only allowed to view.

I have a further post on this topic at:
http://support.nabble.com/Moderating-free-forum-tp6873076p6873871.html

Q8. It is confusing that anyone can Register as User of the Forum but they cannot actually access it until I make them a member.  I think now it would have been clearer if I had made it "by invitation only".  Is it possible for me to change this setting for the whole Forum?

The first sentence is NOT the case. As indicated above, the default Nabble setting is to allow "Anyone" to view and post anywhere on a forum.

You can make a forum "Invitation only" by removing the "View" permission from the "Anyone" group and adding it to the "Members" group. Then you add the email addresses of those users you want as members to the "Members" groups. That way any new user is greeted with a login screen and when they register they still can't do anything, but those who register with an address already in the Members  group will have whatever access you have granted to members.

[GregChapman]

BTW, if you can tell me anything more about my mystery ukulele then email me! :-)
http://www.gregonemanband.plus.com/instruments.html

Further hint re Nabble: While you can email me from the "Contact" page on my site, you can also email any registered user of a Nabble forum by clicking on their username!

[Lizzie]

Hi Greg,

Thank you so much!  That is really helpful.

Something that does still puzzle me though . . .

The screen-shots above are both of the "top level" main page.

However, the Google Group "mailing list archive" is in an app at the level below (I have named it a "mirror" rather than an archive because I think anyone would expect that an archive would include all messages, not just new ones).

As you can see from this screenshot, I have not subscribed to this app (sub-forum/category/mail-list - whatever):



Can the "warning" message that I saw when opening the "Options" link at the top level REALLY relate to subscription to the Google Group?

If I choose the "subscribe" option in the screenshot above (at the lower-level mailing list archive forum) I an taken to a page that is very similar to the one that was generated at the "top level" when I selected "edit subscription".  

The significant difference is the presence of the "visit this page" link at the end of the warning:



If I follow the link at the end of that warning, I am taken to a page that makes perfect sense and chimes with your explanation:



I understand what is going on here, at this level . . . I still do not understand what is going on with that warning message at the Top Level, as there is no other mailing list at that level.  The app seems to recognise this:

- there is no link in the "top level" warning to a page of information about subscribing to the Google Group

- at the lower level I am not already "subscribed" - although I am already subscribed at the Top Level.

EDIT:  Oops! I overlooked this part of your message above:

NOTE: When you subscribe at any level, Nabble will NOT indicate that you are subscribed at any sub-level, though you will receive posts through your subscription at the higher level. Unsubscribe at the higher level, and you will stop receiving posts from that forum and all sub-forums.

I will go back and re-read what you have written (I should have printed it out) but I assume that the last point means that anyone subscribed at the "top level" will automatically receive email updates via Nabble of posts relayed from the Google Group but that they cannot respond unless also registered with the Google Group, and that they have to respond directly to the Google Group, rather than via Nabble?

I did have some problem understanding what the settings options for the mailing list archive meant . . . best go back and re-read before I continue as you might have answered that one too :-)

Hope that makes sense!

Many thanks again,

ps.  I haven't had a look at the links you sent me yet - I have previously written instructions for members of Yahoo Groups and Google Groups as what is online is so scattered and difficult to understand that there are always a significant number of real newbies or "techno-phobes" who just cannot make head nor tail of it at all.  As you can see here, I have been around the block a few times with these sorts of applications and they have my head a whirl!

pps. Emailed you re the mystery banjolele!

Best wishes,
Lizzie

[Lizzie]

Hi Greg - re this bit of your reply above:

The "real mailing list" refers to your GoogleGroup.

When you subscribe to a Nabble archive of a mailing list hosted by someone else all you get is the mail received by the archive from that other provider. It works because Nabble will have subscribed to that mailing list.

While you will be able to reply to the mailing list via Nabble and Nabble will forward your post to the mailing list, the "real mailing list" will only accept the message if YOU are subscribed! It's an obvious security system for the mailing list. If that feature didn't exist the owners of the mailing list couldn't keep out those subscribers it didn't want to accept to its list.

In other words, if someone joins your forum and attempts to post to to your GoogleGroup via Nabble then the message will bounce UNLESS that someone is also subscribed to the GoogleGroup.

When you say in the above, "if YOU are subscribed"  I assume you mean "the same email address is subscribed"?

That is, someone would have to register the same email address with both the Google Group and the Nabble mailing list/forum for their message via Nabble to be recognised by the "real mailing list"?

Best wishes,
Lizzie

[Lizzie]

Hi Greg - MANY thanks for this link: http://www.seahawk17.plus.com/forum.htm#nabble-td1599197

Exactly the sort thing I have been preparing, so this will save me a lot time! :-)

Best wishes,
Lizzie

[GregChapman]

Lizzie wrote

As you can see from this screenshot, I have not subscribed to this app (sub-forum/category/mail-list - whatever):

Can the "warning" message that I saw when opening the "Options" link at the top level REALLY relate to subscription to the Google Group?

I confess that I do not have a forum with your particular configuration to run a test, so you will have to wait for one of the Nabble Team to appear here and provide a definitive answer to that one.

EDIT:  Oops! I overlooked this part of your message above:

NOTE: When you subscribe at any level, Nabble will NOT indicate that you are subscribed at any sub-level, though you will receive posts through your subscription at the higher level. Unsubscribe at the higher level, and you will stop receiving posts from that forum and all sub-forums.

I will go back and re-read what you have written (I should have printed it out) but I assume that the last point means that anyone subscribed at the "top level" will automatically receive email updates via Nabble of posts relayed from the Google Group but that they cannot respond unless also registered with the Google Group, and that they have to respond directly to the Google Group, rather than via Nabble?

That's correct! (In effect you are getting copies of Nabble's subscription to the GoogleGroup, but without your own subscription to the GoogleGroup you will not be able to post - but once you have your own subscription you will be able to post, either through Google or via Nabble on the web - and , of course, your email program.)

And what I didn't say, is that it is possible to get duplicate messages by virtue of a Nabble subscription at the top level and one to the mail list mirror.

I did have some problem understanding what the settings options for the mailing list archive meant . . . best go back and re-read before I continue as you might have answered that one too :-)

Hope that makes sense!

So far!

ps.  I haven't had a look at the links you sent me yet

They are not vital as, in effect, they only repeat what I have written in this topic.

there are always a significant number of real newbies or "techno-phobes" who just cannot make head nor tail of it at all.

SeaHawk owners tend to be a bit like that. It's why the "My Boat" section of the SeaHawk forum seems to be faltering!

pps. Emailed you re the mystery banjolele!

Your test worked! :-)

[Pedro]

Hi Lizzie,
your google group is private or public?

[Lizzie]

Hi Pedro - it's a private Google Group.
Lizzie