admin approval for non-members of mailinglist

[nitin]

i want to simply

(1) allow members to use one common email address for posting to the mailing list from their email accounts, and

(2) anyone who is not a member to post using that same email address, and simply have the admin approve them.


This is a very simple and important feature, and I have not been able to figure out how to make it happen. I even set up a google group, and tried to post to the group, but now all members have to sign up with the google group in order for their emails to go directly to the nabble!

This is a basic function of any mailing list, and I don't understand why nabble doesn't offer it without having to use some sort of redundant mirror.

[Peter <Nabble>]

Are you trying to set up a mail list archive or a mail list?

[nitin]

We set up a mailing list:
http://ames-green-housing-collective.1061875.n5.nabble.com/

... and in order to have an address, I tried to set up a mirror to a google group through setting up a mailing list archive. I guess I can't do both; it ended up being only a mirror to the google group, whereas I was hoping that people could primarily use the nabble mailing list, and the google group for non-members sending emails. So, to revise my statement from before, people could do all the things I mentioned, and still use the nabble directly as well. It's annoying to have people sign up for both.

Ultimately, I would rather not have to use a mirror at all, and for there to be a common mailing address for everyone for which I would just have to approve non-member emails to. So firstly, is this possible??

[GregChapman]

nitin wrote

i want to simply

(1) allow members to use one common email address for posting to the mailing list from their email accounts, and

(2) anyone who is not a member to post using that same email address, and simply have the admin approve them.

This is a very simple and important feature, and I have not been able to figure out how to make it happen.

What you want is a Nabble Forum (Not a mail list archive!).

The great advantage of a Nabble Forum over many other "forum" products is that members can interact with it entirely by email, if that is what they want to do (or you, the administrator, forces them to do).

It's only a "forum" because that is the format in which the list archives are presented on Nabble's web site. It is the forum to which you refer to look up old posts that were sent to the list before you subscribed and through which you subscribe.

Unless you alter the default permissions, then all it takes for someone to subscribe to your "list" is to select OPTIONS > SUBSCRIBE from your forum's home page. Subscribers only need to register if they want to post via the forum. Again there are options (permissions) which you can set to restrict viewing of the archives or posting to your list via the forum, if that is what you, as administrator, want to do.

Remember that for many using web mail services it is usually easier and quicker to post via the "forum", but that's your choice, if you want to prevent them doing that.

You certainly don't need a googlegroup!

[nitin]

Yes, I would prefer to not have to use google groups, because I find it quite disgusting and disorganized.

I just created the forum:
http://ames-green-housing-collective.1062547.n5.nabble.com/

... and when I click on "Options > Post by Email"

I get the following:

__________________________________________

Instead of posting via the web interface, you can also post new topics by sending emails to the following email address:

Ames Green Housing Collective <[hidden email]>

Note that this address is unique to you and only accepts emails sent from [hidden email]. The purpose of this design is to help prevent spam.

__________________________________________

I would rather have users be able to use one address, and have the admins be able to approve incoming emails, regardless of whether they are spam (which hopefully would be automatically filtered).


Nitin

On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 11:52 AM, GregChapman [via Nabble Support] <[hidden email]> wrote:

nitin wrote:

i want to simply

(1) allow members to use one common email address for posting to the mailing list from their email accounts, and

(2) anyone who is not a member to post using that same email address, and simply have the admin approve them.

This is a very simple and important feature, and I have not been able to figure out how to make it happen.

What you want is a Nabble Forum (Not a mail list archive!).

The great advantage of a Nabble Forum over many other "forum" products is that members can interact with it entirely by email, if that is what they want to do (or you, the administrator, forces them to do).

It's only a "forum" because that is the format in which the list archives are presented on Nabble's web site. It is the forum to which you refer to look up old posts that were sent to the list before you subscribed and through which you subscribe.

Unless you alter the default permissions, then all it takes for someone to subscribe to your "list" is to select OPTIONS > SUBSCRIBE from your forum's home page. Subscribers only need to register if they want to post via the forum. Again there are options (permissions) which you can set to restrict viewing of the archives or posting to your list via the forum, if that is what you, as administrator, want to do.

Remember that for many using web mail services it is usually easier and quicker to post via the "forum", but that's your choice, if you want to prevent them doing that.

You certainly don't need a googlegroup!

Just a Volunteer Nabble Helper - because the nice folk at Nabble have helped me!

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[GregChapman]

nitin wrote

I would rather have users be able to use one address

Why? Read on. I respond later!

have the admins be able to approve incoming emails, regardless of whether they are spam (which hopefully would be automatically filtered).

Spam can't get in, if you set the permissions to prevent "Anyone" from posting.

I should have made clear, it is a forum you'll create and the assumptions about how people post are based on those protocols and not the ones you may be used to with a traditional mail list.

The traditional mail list has one of two approaches.

1. Allows anyone to subscribe (which allows them to see other posts and make their own) without question and then rely on a list moderator to approve individual posts, eventually, learning to trust certain subscribers and removing moderation.

2. Demand that people to jump through hoops before approving their subscription (when you'd expect moderation to be unnecessary).

With a forum, Option 2 is the only option. If you approve a member you can only remove offending material after the event. (and in Nabble's case those with subscriptions will have seen the automatically generated mail at the time of the post and you won't be able to retrieve it from subscriber's In-Boxes.) In other words, you trust the people who you've specifically, granted permission to post.

__________________________________________

Instead of posting via the web interface, you can also post new topics by sending emails to the following email address:
Ames Green Housing Collective <[hidden email]>
        Note that this address is unique to you and only accepts emails sent from [hidden email]. The purpose of this design is to help prevent spam.
__________________________________________

That message is there because you haven't changed the default permissions, which allows anyone to post, not just those you approve. The "Post by email" option is removed from "Anyone"'s menu if you set the permissions accordingly. Go to OPTIONS > USERS > CHANGE PERMISSIONS and remove the permission for "Anyone" to "Create_Topic" and "Reply".

If you rely on the option "Subscribe by email" then as Administrator you have a record of of who holds a subscription and can remove it if they post inappropriately.

If you wish to allow posting via the web site and not just via email (and I'd recommend that - to make life easier for those who normally post via web mail services) then add "Create_Topic" and "Reply" permissions to those "Registered". Again you will have a record of their membership and can remove them.

If you wish to keep the archives private you will also need to remove "View" from that column. Now only those who register their email address with you can post - whether by email or the web interface.

So, it's true that Nabble won't give you the traditional mail list allow anyone in and then actively police them approach, only the alternative approve them in advance and trust them once approved.

In my experience, as someone who still prefers mail lists for messages between small groups of people who know each other in the real world, this approach is entirely viable. Bitter experience has also taught me that many new-comers to the Internet are not familiar with filtering systems/folders in traditional email clients and keep all mail in one folder, deleting it once read. For them handling lots of mail becomes a real pain, whereas the web-based forum format, with messages neatly arranged in specific topic areas, is easier for them to handle.

Now, that "one address" business! What purpose does that serve? You don't really want people passing it around so anyone can join your list willy-nilly, do you? You'll end up with spammers joining and having to moderate every message! Why waste time doing that when, instead, you can just let in those who you approve.

If it's for ease of promotion purposes, then the web address will suffice as that's where people are going to have to go to subscribe - unless you use the appropriate screen to invite people. Mind you, to respond to your invite they still have to visit a web address to confirm their subscription, so you'll never be completely free of the web with Nabble.

[GregChapman]

P.S.
No need to quote all of my original message when responding - Just include the bits that are relevant to your reply.

This is a mail list, so I already have a copy of my complete original post in my OutBox. Sending it back to me is just clutter that adds unnecessarily to bandwidth usage!

[nitin]

I would much rather:

(1) Have 1 email address people can use, and
(2) Only approved users can send emails that automatically get approved, but
(3) If someone posts, I can approve them, either once or for any emails they send from the address they use, and
(4) If there is spam, it is automatically filtered, and I don't have to deal with it.

I have been an admin with at least one mailing list, and a few google groups, and we have never had any problems with spam, as it was automatically filtered. Anything that wasn't spam would come to our admins emails to approve. I chose Nabble because it looks nice, I can simply start a mailing list/forum without having to set up a server, and we can self-organize things into forum topics.

I want to be inviting to people, and allow them to simply email the whole group. We are trying to set up a craigslist ad right now to start.

I guess I'll just use the google group address and have things mirrored through nabble. I wanted people to only use nabble.

So, what I'm doing (and it looks like it's working) is:
(1) When someone wants to send something, they'll send it to a gmail account we set up. This way we will use the gmail account, and no one ends up using or seeing the google group, and spam is filtered automatically by the gmail account.
(2) All incoming email in the google account is forwarded to a google group. The admin of the google group has to approve any incoming email from the gmail account (we might change this).
(3) The google group is mirrored to the nabble.

[nitin]

actually, it looks like people who sign up have to also sign up for the google group. That completely sucks.

Is there any way to get around that?

This is really wearing me thin. I'm probably just going to use google group.

I feel that you guys have set something up that doesn't provide some basic, useful functionality that you might want to reconsider.

[Peter <Nabble>]

I agree with what Greg said about one e-mail per person and having to moderate each message. I think that either you are not foreseeing how much your group can go or you are under evaluating the effort you are going to dedicate on moderation.

[GregChapman]

Hi nitin,

nitin wrote

I would much rather:

(1) Have 1 email address people can use, and

Nabble does not offer this. You still haven't explained why you need it. What advantage does it give you?

(2) Only approved users can send emails that automatically get approved

Nabble gives you this.

(3) If someone posts, I can approve them, either once or for any emails they send from the address they use

Nabble does not allow you to approve individual posts before they get mailed to subscribers or appear on the forum/mail archive. You may, of course, delete them from the forum/archive.

The important point is that Nabble fundamentally works on forum principles, not mail list principles, Either you allow anyone to post (with its consequent issues) or must approve a user (and trust them to follow your rules).

(4) If there is spam, it is automatically filtered, and I don't have to deal with it.

Since you can prevent untrusted users from posting there is no question of spam.

Either Nabble is acceptable to you on this basis or you need to moderate your requirements or look elsewhere.

I am utterly confused by these Google hoops that you seem to want to jump through. That stuff appears a complete waste of time and energy to me. I can see no possible benefit and it just adds a massive overhead in administration.

With user approval worries about spam disappear. You will find that user approval (as distinct from post approval) works in just about every case. You need to have upset someone badly to have problems with the system. Try it! Trust your users. You may be surprised.

[nitin]

Well, I decided to just use a the google group, and mirror it to our nabble forum.

Since you can prevent untrusted users from posting there is no question of spam.

Again, many mailing lists and email services, such as gmail and google groups automatically filter spam, so I don't need to deal with that anyway. I think that this is the crux of the whole thing, as it's the point that hasn't been addressed yet. If there was an automatic spam filter, then nabble could, like google products, have a single email address people use.

Perhaps I am wrong that google groups filters spam automatically, in which case the whole idea is, as you say, unmanageable. But I've never experienced spam, having started at least a couple google groups.

I want to do this because I would like people to be able to post to the mailing list without having to necessarily sign up. An advantage would be if we could use it for a craigslist ad, or if someone wanted to contact us. Our group is meant to be open, so I don't like the idea of me being the one to control the information that comes in.

I guess we'll test this out for a while. The problem will likely arise that people have to be signed up for the google group in order to post in the nabble as well. That is the main problem I foresee, unless, again, I am wrong about automatic filtering.
Again, is there any way to get around that? I'd like to be able to have people who are not signed up in the google group, and are signed into the nabble, to be able to post in the nabble.

Thanks for all your help!
Nitin

On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 6:09 AM, GregChapman [via Nabble Support] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi nitin,

nitin wrote:

I would much rather:

(1) Have 1 email address people can use, and

Nabble does not offer this. You still haven't explained why you need it. What advantage does it give you?

(2) Only approved users can send emails that automatically get approved

Nabble gives you this.

(3) If someone posts, I can approve them, either once or for any emails they send from the address they use

Nabble does not allow you to approve individual posts before they get mailed to subscribers or appear on the forum/mail archive. You may, of course, delete them from the forum/archive.

The important point is that Nabble fundamentally works on forum principles, not mail list principles, Either you allow anyone to post (with its consequent issues) or must approve a user (and trust them to follow your rules).

(4) If there is spam, it is automatically filtered, and I don't have to deal with it.

Since you can prevent untrusted users from posting there is no question of spam.

Either Nabble is acceptable to you on this basis or you need to moderate your requirements or look elsewhere.

I am utterly confused by these Google hoops that you seem to want to jump through. That stuff appears a complete waste of time and energy to me. I can see no possible benefit and it just adds a massive overhead in administration.

With user approval worries about spam disappear. You will find that user approval (as distinct from post approval) works in just about every case. You need to have upset someone badly to have problems with the system. Try it! Trust your users. You may be surprised.

Just a Volunteer Nabble Helper - because the nice folk at Nabble have helped me!

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[GregChapman]

nitin wrote

I think that this is the crux of the whole thing, as it's the point that
hasn't been addressed yet. If there was an automatic spam filter, then
nabble could, like google products, have a single email address people use.

I still think you don't understand. As far as I'm aware the Google Groups service has no specific spam filter. (It's different to GMail!) Spammers use addresses harvested from web sites to email people in bulk or write scripts to bulk post to forums. One-off or repeated off-topic and inappropriate posts to a forum or mail lists is not spamming and needs to be dealt with differently.

To send successfully to a Google Group requires that you subscribe to/register at the group. Spammers skip that step, so their emails/posts never reach the group. I understand that Nabble has a similar ability to detect and defeat such bulk posting.

You can set up a Nabble forum to force people to join in the same way you do with a Google Group. Additionally, a Nabble forum has a mail option. You can subscribe to any topic, sub-forum or forum. To prevent spammers accessing the forum via email, Nabble creates a unique address for a given subscriber thereby preventing spam. It's a very positive benefit, NOT a problem.

I want to do this because I would like people to be able to post to the mailing list without having to necessarily sign up.

Again, I simply don't understand! Forgive me but you're talking nonsense!

You ALWAYS "sign up" to a mail list, the conventional term is "subscribe". To join any list I know you will have to send a message to the list server, usually the address for that takes the form "[e-mail]" There are some services, like Google Groups and YahooGroups that allow "registration" through a web site in order to subscribe, but clearly you must supply an email address as part of this process, or how will the service know where to send the mail you are requesting to be sent to you.

You appear very confused about whether you are really talking about a mail list or a forum and are using the terms interchangeably. You need to clear about what you really want - a forum, which you interact with via a web site, or a mail list, which you interact with through a mail program.

An advantage would be if we could use it for a craigslist ad, or if someone wanted to contact us. Our group is meant to be open, so I don't like the idea of me being the one to control the information that comes in.

If you want people to email you, then just supply an email address for people to write to. Why does their message need to be made public and displayed on a web site or circulated by email? You can always publish FAQs on your site to stop having to send out answers to common questions.

I guess we'll test this out for a while. The problem will likely arise that
people have to be signed up for the google group in order to post in the
nabble as well. That is the main problem I foresee, unless, again, I am
wrong about automatic filtering.

It's not so much that you are wrong as not understanding the nature of the situation. There seems to be  something very misconceived about your whole approach, that I clearly don't understand. Until I have got to the bottom of it I can't best advise you.

Again, is there any way to get around that? I'd like to be able to have
people who are not signed up in the google group, and are signed into the
nabble, to be able to post in the nabble.

You seem very confused about your real needs. We need to establish a number of things:
1. Why can't people just email you and you reply?
2. Why do you want people's message's to you to be made public?
3. Do you want access to those public messages to be via the web or via mail?
4. Why should people NOT reveal their mail address to you? (They have to when emailing you or when joining a mail list of yours. Why shouldn't they when posting a message on a web site?)
5. Why isn't it important to have the ability to reply privately to a public post on your forum?
6. Are you clear about the difference between spam and one-off/repeated inappropriate posts and the different approaches needed to combat them?

I am sure there is more I should ask.

(It may be up to a week before I respond further. I'm off on holiday!)

[nitin]

Again, this is wearing me thin, and I am sure it is for you too. I've spent probably 2 hrs on this when it should have taken me 10 minutes. That is not anyone's fault, it's just really wearing me thin.

Frankly, I think that for a conversation like this, email is a very inefficient medium. If you want to skype with me, my address is: nittyjee

I'll still respond to your email, but it is starting to grind me down, because though I feel I've been clear and my objectives reasonable, I don't think you're understanding me.

If you want to respond, please just skype me at this point.




As far as I'm aware the Google Groups service has no specific spam filter. (It's different to GMail!) Spammers use addresses harvested from web sites to email people in bulk or write scripts to bulk post to forums. One-off or repeated off-topic and inappropriate posts to a forum or mail lists is not spamming and needs to be dealt with differently.

Since that has not been my experience with the google groups I've administered, I'm going to take my chances. Perhaps we'll post our email as an image.

You can set up a Nabble forum to force people to join in the same way you do with a Google Group. Additionally, a Nabble forum has a mail option. You can subscribe to any topic, sub-forum or forum. To prevent spammers accessing the forum via email, Nabble creates a unique address for a given subscriber thereby preventing spam. It's a very positive benefit, NOT a problem.

Google groups gives one email address that people can use to send emails to the group, that would have to be approved if they are not members. Nabble makes people write their email address to receive another unique address.


You ALWAYS "sign up" to a mail list, the conventional term is "subscribe".

Forgive me for not using the term "subscribe". That's what I meant by "sign up".

To join any list I know you will have to send a message to the list server, usually the address for that takes the form "[hidden email]"

That's how people can post, with moderator approval without having to subscribe.
That's the one address I want to be able to give them.

If you want people to email you, then just supply an email address for people to write to. Why does their message need to be made public and displayed on a web site or circulated by email?

Because, again, I want it to go to the whole group, and not just myself. And I don't want two separate sites or accounts. I want there to be one. I want that to be nabble. I suppose I don't care if emails are public. But I didn't really consider this. I wish there was a way to make a separate private sub-forum people could be approved for, but that sounds even more complicated given my approach.



Let me go through this step by step:

(1) I want to use nabble, because I like how it's well organized, and convenient (despite this one issue).
(2) In order to prevent spam, nabble gives a unique address to people to use from a particular email address.
(3) I have had experiences with google groups (which is disorganized, ugly and generally crappy), where they allow one email address, which if someone posts to, they are subject to moderator approval.
(4) I have never had any issues with spam having administrated a few mailing lists. I suspect that google groups automatically filters spam.
(5) Given that it has never been a problem, I would rather have people be given one address that people could use. Since Nabble doesn't allow this:
(6) I have set up a google group, which:
(7) Is mirrored to the nabble. Anyone who posts to the address given who is not a member of the nabble or google group can then be moderated by the administrator of the google group, and their post will be receive in the nabble, and then by everyone to subscibed to the nabble.
(8) Unfortunately, it appears that only people who are registered in both the nabble and the google group can have things go to the nabble. I'd rather have only the admins of the google group approve people posting in the google group, and no one have to sign up for both the google group and nabble. I want to use the nabble for group, and the google group only for forwarding email.

I want to know:
(1) is there any way that we can use only the nabble, and have one address? This has already been answered as "no".
(2) Is there a way that people can do things according to #8, only having to sign up for the nabble to interact?


This is exhaustively clear, and I don't think it's unreasonable. Again, unless you have a solution to the last question (#2), then please skype me (nittyjee). This is the last time I'm either of us should spend this long writing an email. If you don't want to do either, I completely understand. At this point, I'm going to take my chances and see what we end up going with. I really like nabble though :)


Again, thanks for all your help,
Nitin



You seem very confused about your real needs. We need to establish a number of things:
1. Why can't people just email you and you reply?



2. Why do you want people's message's to you to be made public?
3. Do you want access to those public messages to be via the web or via mail?
4. Why should people NOT reveal their mail address to you? (They have to when emailing you or when joining a mail list of yours. Why shouldn't they when posting a message on a web site?)
5. Why isn't it important to have the ability to reply privately to a public post on your forum?
6. Are you clear about the difference between spam and one-off/repeated inappropriate posts and the different approaches needed to combat them?

On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 4:52 AM, GregChapman [via Nabble Support] <[hidden email]> wrote:

nitin wrote:

I think that this is the crux of the whole thing, as it's the point that
hasn't been addressed yet. If there was an automatic spam filter, then
nabble could, like google products, have a single email address people use.

I still think you don't understand. As far as I'm aware the Google Groups service has no specific spam filter. (It's different to GMail!) Spammers use addresses harvested from web sites to email people in bulk or write scripts to bulk post to forums. One-off or repeated off-topic and inappropriate posts to a forum or mail lists is not spamming and needs to be dealt with differently.

To send successfully to a Google Group requires that you subscribe to/register at the group. Spammers skip that step, so their emails/posts never reach the group. I understand that Nabble has a similar ability to detect and defeat such bulk posting.

You can set up a Nabble forum to force people to join in the same way you do with a Google Group. Additionally, a Nabble forum has a mail option. You can subscribe to any topic, sub-forum or forum. To prevent spammers accessing the forum via email, Nabble creates a unique address for a given subscriber thereby preventing spam. It's a very positive benefit, NOT a problem.

I want to do this because I would like people to be able to post to the mailing list without having to necessarily sign up.

Again, I simply don't understand! Forgive me but you're talking nonsense!

You ALWAYS "sign up" to a mail list, the conventional term is "subscribe". To join any list I know you will have to send a message to the list server, usually the address for that takes the form "[hidden email]" There are some services, like Google Groups and YahooGroups that allow "registration" through a web site in order to subscribe, but clearly you must supply an email address as part of this process, or how will the service know where to send the mail you are requesting to be sent to you.

You appear very confused about whether you are really talking about a mail list or a forum and are using the terms interchangeably. You need to clear about what you really want - a forum, which you interact with via a web site, or a mail list, which you interact with through a mail program.

An advantage would be if we could use it for a craigslist ad, or if someone wanted to contact us. Our group is meant to be open, so I don't like the idea of me being the one to control the information that comes in.

If you want people to email you, then just supply an email address for people to write to. Why does their message need to be made public and displayed on a web site or circulated by email? You can always publish FAQs on your site to stop having to send out answers to common questions.

I guess we'll test this out for a while. The problem will likely arise that
people have to be signed up for the google group in order to post in the
nabble as well. That is the main problem I foresee, unless, again, I am
wrong about automatic filtering.

It's not so much that you are wrong as not understanding the nature of the situation. There seems to be  something very misconceived about your whole approach, that I clearly don't understand. Until I have got to the bottom of it I can't best advise you.

Again, is there any way to get around that? I'd like to be able to have
people who are not signed up in the google group, and are signed into the
nabble, to be able to post in the nabble.

You seem very confused about your real needs. We need to establish a number of things:
1. Why can't people just email you and you reply?
2. Why do you want people's message's to you to be made public?
3. Do you want access to those public messages to be via the web or via mail?
4. Why should people NOT reveal their mail address to you? (They have to when emailing you or when joining a mail list of yours. Why shouldn't they when posting a message on a web site?)
5. Why isn't it important to have the ability to reply privately to a public post on your forum?
6. Are you clear about the difference between spam and one-off/repeated inappropriate posts and the different approaches needed to combat them?

I am sure there is more I should ask.

(It may be up to a week before I respond further. I'm off on holiday!)

Just a Volunteer Nabble Helper - because the nice folk at Nabble have helped me!

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