Default link suggestion

[Dave :-)]

Just an idea, when posting a link, could the default setting be to open in a new window, rather than the same window? Then clicking on it wouldn't take you away from the forum.
I know it's simple for us knowlegable folk to add the appropriate tag, but not everyone can cope with it.
Cheers
Dave:-)

[Graham Perrin]

(I prefer the current default … cheers ;)

[Dave :-)]

You mean you prefer people to leave your forum ??????
I don't understand the advantage in that

[Graham Perrin]

Dave :-) wrote

You mean you prefer people to leave your forum ??????

Click a link ≠ new window. Back command/button allows the user to go back to the forum :)

I prefer to not force new windows for links.

Maybe you can customise the CSS for your forum?

No argument with an option, but I wouldn't welcome a change to the default.

Kind regards
Graham

[Dave :-)]

The trouble is, with the massive increase in badly written ajax based websites, the back button quite often doesn't work these days. Even with a well written ajax site, the chances of it working is about 1 in 5!
   Anyway, leaving a site to follow a link is against all the rules of good website design. If I wrote websites like that, I would soon be out of business!!!!

[Hugo (Nabble)]

Dave :-) wrote

   Anyway, leaving a site to follow a link is against all the rules of good website design.

It is the opposite. The bad design is to force a link to open on another tab/window. The user should decide this and use the right-click popup menu when needed. If you search the Internet, you will see several articles on this direction. Here is one (see item #2):

Designers open new browser windows on the theory that it keeps users on their site. But even disregarding the user-hostile message implied in taking over the user's machine, the strategy is self-defeating since it disables the Back button which is the normal way users return to previous sites. Users often don't notice that a new window has opened, especially if they are using a small monitor where the windows are maximized to fill up the screen. So a user who tries to return to the origin will be confused by a grayed out Back button.

Regards,
Hugo Teixeira
Nabble.com

[Dave :-)]

Er, where have you been for the past decade? Your article is dated 1999, when the internet was a very different place, and you avoided extra windows to save processor strain!
These days, when more than 93% of users have tabbed browsers, the rule is that internal links generally open in the same tab, and external links open in new tabs. Simple. If you don't do that, you lose the client, also simple.
 You have also chosen not to explain how you propose to deal with ajax sites, which nearly always break the back button.
Come on, we are well into the 21st century now.

[Hugo (Nabble)]

What about an article from July 2008?
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2008/07/01/should-links-open-in-new-windows/

> From the usability point of view the decision to enforce opening links in new windows violates one of the fundamental principles of the user interface design: users should always be in control of the interface they are interacting with.

Simple.

Dave :-) wrote

You have also chosen not to explain how you propose to deal with ajax sites, which nearly always break the back button.

Nabble isn't an Ajax based website, so this argument doesn't apply here.
The thing is that we are discussing something that some people agree and some don't. So this discussion might never end. One basic solution is to place an icon at the end of each link and have users decide if they want to click on the link or on the icon. Is that something you would like to see on the Nabble website?

Regards,
Hugo Teixeira
Nabble.com

[Dave :-)]

 From the usability point of view the decision to enforce opening links in new windows violates one of the fundamental principles of the user interface design: users should always be in control of the interface they are interacting with

Well, as we say here in Norfolk, "what a load of old squit!" The only reason I brought the matter up is because of the number of complaints I've had, and the fact that it is putting people off from signing up to use the site. The internet has moved on, and it seems a shame that something like nabble is in some ways so firmly stuck in the last century.

The point about ajax sites is that, if your link leads to one, it is more likely than not that the back button will simply reload the current ajax site, no matter how far back into the history you delve. So the only resort for the user is to open another tab or window, reload the forum again, and renavigate to the point where they were. This is NOT user friendly! Links in forums tend to lead to bits of information you want to glance at, and then move on to the next post. The obvious thing to do is to open it, look at it, close it, and carry on. Most sites that carry the odd bits of news you might want to refer to are going over to ajax, so this is a problem that will get worse by the day.
 The practical outcome of all this is that people, rather than registering and posting themselves, are emailing me the info they want put in, so it looks like most of the posts are mine, or sending me their passwords so I can fix it, which is negating one of your other cherished ideas about privacy. The idea that people sit there hammering away at the back button is also very oldschool thinking, and more than a bit insulting to the general public. People learn!

Adding an icon after the link would be a very clumsy way of dealing with the matter, and just add clutter and confusion. Maybe an option to set the default behavior in with the 'change appearance' tab?

It would be good to hear what other people think
Cheers
Dave

[Graham Perrin]

Dave :-) wrote

It would be good to hear what other people think
Cheers
Dave

…

Hugo Teixeira wrote

The thing is that we are discussing something that some people agree and some don't. So this discussion might never end.

I'll aim to limit myself to only one response. I can't expect it to be entirely agreeable to any one (or more) of the many sides to this debate, but here goes…

Dave :-) wrote

nabble is in some ways so firmly stuck in the last century.

That's rather harsh :/

complaints I've had

My twopenneth: individual reports are easier to address than collective complaints.

Problems with browse back

Dave :-) wrote

complaints I've had

I'm reminded of two reports (possibly the same issue):

• Bug: browse back fails after following forum link to a message (message, not forum, is re-presented)

• back a page

Back and history

more likely than not that the back button will simply reload the current ajax site, no matter how far back into the history you delve.

I never had this problem. For me, history always works, with or without Ajax in the mix. A sandpit: <http://www.brighton.ac.uk/centrim/Members/gjp4/nabble/links>

1. Is the user properly aware of the history feature of their browser? For convenience: sometimes combined with the back and forward buttons.

2. Is the history feature of the browser bugged?

Tendencies and user preferences

Links in forums tend to lead to bits of information you want to glance at, and then move on to the next post. The obvious thing to do is to open it, look at it, close it, and carry on.

Link/look ≠ new window.

I know of no browser that defaults to opening all links in new windows.

I should never expect a site to open all links in new windows.

Certainly, for some links, the user may prefer a new window.

Ajax and the browsing experience

Most sites that carry the odd bits of news you might want to refer to are going over to ajax, so this is a problem that will get worse by the day.

I find no evidence of this. Most people to whom I provide support are far from masterly in their use of OSes, far from masterly in their use of browsers; they do seek support on a wide range of issues and if their browsing experience was worsening, I would know about it.

Back and history

hammering away at the back button

No need to hammer. Either:

• single click the history menu, single click the required point

or

• click and hold the back button, release at the required point:



Ideas, options

Hugo Teixeira wrote

One basic solution is to place an icon at the end of each link and have users decide if they want to click on the link or on the icon. Is that something you would like to see on the Nabble website?

Not by default.

Dave :-) wrote

Maybe an option to set the default behavior in with the 'change appearance' tab?

Graham Perrin wrote

No argument with an option, but I wouldn't welcome a change to the default.

A comparison: content management system with many external links

Plone allows site managers to vary the appearance of external links (distinguish from internal links). I very rarely see this variation.

Plone also allows site managers an option (not a default) for external links (only) to open in new windows. This may be rarer, I can't remember when I last saw this option enabled.

Our organisational and geographical situations necessitate many links to external sites. At stages during site development I did toy with the Plone option to open external links in new windows, but the experience is much better without it.

I receive zero complaints about link behaviours.

Options

<http://dev.plone.org/plone/ticket/6207> was resolved with an option for external links

My gut feeling: if a comparable option is offered within any Nabble forum (not necessarily within Nabble service), then the road to perfection — to universal pleasure — may be long and/or rocky. A random selection of issues: <http://dev.plone.org/plone/ticket/7975> <http://dev.plone.org/plone/ticket/8007> <http://dev.plone.org/plone/ticket/8440>.

Options, options, options. Either:

a) demonstrate to the user a history menu that works

or

b) prepare for bugs relating to service behaviours that may vary from browser/user defaults/preferences.

That's a bit cheeky ;) but I know which one I prefer.

Personally

More often than not I'm annoyed by sites that open links in new windows or pop-ups, unless there is an extraordinarily good reason to do so. Whenever I find myself in such an area, I work around the annoyance by using extra keystrokes to force tabs (in lieu of windows) but I would prefer to be in control; any new window that is unwanted, unwanted but forced upon me by the site, is a real annoyance. YMMV.

Exceptions? Recently, I appreciate new window behaviour at <http://search.autotrader.co.uk/>. It is fairly well thought out, the new windows are not excessive. But Auto Trader is not Nabble :)

Bottom line

I know of no browser that defaults to opening all links in new windows. Maybe such a browser exists, but no-one has asked me for it.

Best,
Graham

[Dave :-)]

I've just had time to read the whole posting in smashing magazine. Have you read the Comments by other people??? Out of about 270 replies, only about a dozen are in favour of allways opening in the same page, everyone else thinks that external sites should open in new tabs. Someone also points out that every external link on that page opens in a new tab!
Think of a website as reading a book. As you go through your book, you turn from page to page in the same book. But if you find a reference to another book, you open that book as well, you don't cut out the pages and stick them into the book you are already reading!
I agree that the user should decide, but you don't seem to grasp that, for the majority of users, you are forcing them AWAY from the place they want to be. I must also point out that I am a member of 14 other forums, and only one of those has links opening in the same window (and everyone has complained about it for YEARS!)
Cheers
Dave

[Dave :-)]

So what is happening now ????????  Suddenly every single link on the site, including the navigation at the top, is opening in a new window !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wish I had never started this!
Dave

[Dave :-)]

My original suggestion was very simple. When you are making a post, and you click on 'add link', it adds a link that opens in the same window. If you have nabble embedded on another page (one of nabbles major advantages) this is not at all user friendly. All I suggested is that when you click 'add link', it includes the target="_blank" tag. I did NOT suggest changing the functioning of the whole site!
From the point of view of the non-expert user, it is much easier to delete this tag if you don't want it, than to remember what the tag is if you do. It would even be easy to insert a comment about removing the tag if you do want it to open in the same window.
Now every single link, including same site links, seem to be forced into a new tab! not good!
Can I suggest looking at the site http://www.chatterbox.uk.pn (will open in new window :-) ) and you will see what I am getting at.

[Hugo (Nabble)]

Dave :-) wrote

So what is happening now ????????  Suddenly every single link on the site, including the navigation at the top, is opening in a new window !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't reproduce this.
Can you reproduce this consistently?
Did you try refreshing the page?
Which browser and version?

[Dave :-)]

Yes, on four different computers here, and so far one complaint from Georgia, usa.
The problem is consistent over IE7, Avant browser, Chrome, Spacetime and Konkeror, and firefox under Linux (Sabyon4), (but not windows, strange) I have tested with Windows Vista and XP, and linux, and the same results every time

[Dave :-)]

Are you testing it on an embedded site? It does still work ok if not embedded. I've just tried a friends site, and that has the same problem

[Dave :-)]

This is getting silly, my inbox is filling up with complaints. Whatever you changed this morning, can you just put it back please. I'm now getting bad email from other nabble users, who think it's my fault their sites aren't working any more!
All I did was suggest a change to a simple link, and so far I've had 24 hours of grief!!!!!!

[Hugo (Nabble)]

Hi Dave,

do you still see the problem?
If yes, do you see javascript errors in the Nabble domain?
I can't reproduce it. I tried Chrome, IE7, Firefox (linux) and others.

Note that this bug isn't related to your request.
So other users shouldn't blame you for that.

Regards,
Hugo Teixeira
Nabble.com

[Dave :-)]

Some of the problems are fixed, but the navigation across the top of the site is still opening in new windows in many browsers, although chrome seems ok now. (firefox linux never had a problem).

I know it's not my fault!! But try telling them that :-)
I have 3 people giving me serious grief!
No javascript errors notified Have you tried from the site I have it embedded in? www.chatterbox.uk.pn

[Dave :-)]

another new problem is that the forum no longer reloads if you refresh the page it is embedded on in IE7